NJ by the Numbers/Gloucester City has more public/school employees than most communities in the area

By Bill Cleary

Did you ever want to know exactly how many public employees work for your city or town? Would you like to know their salaries?  The latest service, provided by The Star Ledger (http://www.nj.com)  provides a complete list of public employees in each community in the state.

In previous data bases you would have to search for the name of the public employee; now just search for your community and the names of  the employees and their salaries appear.

Besides public payrolls, the newest data base also provides other valuable information such as home sales, property taxes, demographics, school report cards, crime stats, development, town profiles, campaign contributions and health/ environment.

One thing that stands out is the amount of public workers and school employees that are needed to run the community of Gloucester City. Out of those selected the numbers for Gloucester City are higher than most of the more affluent towns that surround the two mile square City of 11,000 plus residents.

According to the information provided the data is current as of January 2007.

Payroll databases for communities in this area reveal:

Audubon Borough               86 employees

Bellmawr Borough              91 employees

Bellmawr Bd. of Ed               120 employees

Brooklawn Borough             31 employees

Brooklawn Bd. of Ed             47 employees

Collingswood Boro                 149 employees

Collingswood Bd. of Ed         306 employees

Cherry Hill Township             301 employees

Cherry Hill Twp School Bd   1000 employees

City of Gloucester City             154 employees

Gloucester City Bd. of Ed         424 employees

Haddon Hts. Bd. of Ed                 203 employees

Haddon Hts. Borough                 61 employees

Haddonfield Bd. of Ed                 344 employees

Haddonfield Borough                 118 employees

Mt. Ephraim Bd. of Ed-               85 employees

Mt. Ephraim Borough                52 employees

Woodbury City                                123 employees

Woodbury Bd. Of Ed                    280 employees

read more

 

 

 

Comments

[fed up]

Brooklawn's fire budget $42,000.00

Gloucester City's fire budget $3,000,000. (yes, that's 3 million dollars a year)

The very least our city government can do is cut two fire department positions a year either through attrition by retirement or by laying people off (start with the out-of-towners)

[Seriously...]

Why does Gloucester City need a full time fire department. This is the only City in the entire Country that has more Firemen than Police Officers. Our Fire Department's Budget is twice that of the Police Department's. Our Police Department is probably one of the busiest in the county and they have 10 less men than the Fire Department. We need more cops, not more Fire Fighters!!! Last time I checked, we are losing this City to crime and Rental Properties, not fires. It is now or never, put your money where your mouth is. Hire the more cops to keep us safe and they will turn this city around. You can have twenty guys working for the housing authority, nothing will happen unless you have zero tolerance with these hoodlams. Hoodlams can cut their lawns and get their landlords to fix their rentals. A full time fire department is a waste of time and money. Even Bellmawr doesn't have a full time fire department and they are like 5 times the size of us. Cut the Fire Department, use the extra money to turn this city around!!

[Update]

Time to Update the number of City Employees.
I guess 2008 is just getting us a Fatter Government in Gloucester City

[WOW]

Bill has every right to delete whatever he WANTS or NEEDS to. His website remember. SO GET OVER IT!

[Chinee]

Ingrateful 1
I wonder where you get the information that you are the only one that had a post pulled from CNB. I consider myself to be one of Bill's many friends and I don't get all my post printed. Move on, get over the fact that Bill pulled your post.
Hugs and Kisses,
Chinee

[taxpayer]

Ingrateful1
How long have you lived here? Rick did run for office and would more than willing run again as he has stated before. The problem is he won't run with the club. He has never pointed to anything that wasn't a previous problem created by the last clubs group. The reason James is now being lumped into the group is because he joined the very club that he said he was going to fight against."Come to the dark side Luke" and he did. We can not continue to run our town on other peoples money forever. I'm not saying we shouldn't apply for money thats out there for our town I'm saying we shouldn't follow every scheme that is put out there.An example is when the rich towns offered to give us money to have the poor people live here. Thank goodness the court overturned that and places like Mt. Laurel and Medford need to provide affordable housing in their own towns. It was called the Mt. Laurel Decision. The Abbott district thing was another carrot. We'll give you all this just come join us. Now there is a permanent stain on our kids and town for becoming an Abbott. It is now thought by people that our kids are poor and our quality of school is lacking. What do you think of when you here the town names like Jersey City,Patterson,and Camden (Other Abbott districts), Bad Schools and Bad Government. Well thats what the rest of the state thinks about us.Is this plain enough for you as to why things are wrong here. I could go on. We have a lot of clean up to do, and if we keep following the old path we are never going to recover.

Ingrateful1
I will attempt to address your response. I didn’t veil my name. I didn’t ask for praise or agreement. If you can demonstrate that to be untrue be my guest.

In my post to Happy I specifically referred to that point in time when the need to declare that our district scores were low was because we were poor. I didn’t believe it then and I don’t believe it now. It is an opinion. My opinion. I offered no reasons or excuses then or now. I made no statements of review about the school district or its management then or now.

I had not mentioned anyone specifically, you chose to do that. The performance of Bob Gorman and Tut Kilcourse were not referred to in any specific way. I have in the past and will in the future refer to the accomplishments or lack thereof by the present and past administrations. We are all paying for their efforts whether positive or negative. As for Bill James, I supported him financially and in other ways and still do. That doesn’t mean I won’t speak out against his decisions or the decisions of others if I disagree. I asked Bill James for two things in exchange for my support. I. To air all public meetings on channel 19. 2. To distribute the list of bills being offered for payment to those people attending the meeting at which they were offered. Bill James agreed and I will keep reminding him of what I will refer to as a campaign promise. I have said this before in posts and it is in English.

Your cliché about doers might require you to look I the mirror. I am doing something about the issues I feel strongly about. That is why I am responding. Give me your support and I will seriously consider running. I have in the past and may again in the future.

I don’t share your opinion that we don’t need a paid fire department. But I am of the opinion that the fire department needs to improve its efficiency or it will price itself out of existence. I support consensus when it comes to major decisions like having a paid fire department or not. But I am willing to keep my promise to support you if you are man enough to take up that cause as the challenge I offered you. We may wind up with something between what you prefer and what I would vote for when I went into the voting booth.

My hand is still out to you if think there is something wrong in Gloucester that you want to do something about. The city has solicited things like that.
Respectfully submitted
Rick Gonzales

[ingrateful1]

Rick,
No matter how veiled your disgust for anything short of praise for your posts is, not everyone has to agree. Were we supposed to say "no" to Abbott money because somewhere down the road it wouldn't be there? Are our kids not worthy of the same programs and benefits as that "LUCKY" Bellmawr/Brooklawn resident? That's just foolish. Beyond that, we were all but assured by that court decision that the financing to the poorer districts would be at least until they could self govern. At this point, that still holds. What you have NEVER said is that GLOUCESTER CITY is the one ABBOTT DISTRICT that worked...regardless of how anyone felt personally about Dr. Stansky. All you heard was about how "mean" she was.
As the second most "distressed" town in Camden County, we buck the trend of almost EVERY town with our per capita income, that is problems with graffiti, gangs, open-air drug markets. Kudos to our parents, schools and police for that.
Are there problems here? Yes. What I tire of is that you NEED a point person for YOUR venom. Robert Gorman, Tut Kilcourse, Billie James..you've hated them all. Why don't YOU run. Those who can, do while those who can't review. You're a reviewer.
Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't. I was never a fan of Robert Gorman as mayor, but I respect his effort as a human to help our town. What I tire of is your empty challenges for transparency.. What exactly is it that Billie James is HIDING from you? Say it in English, not in your veiled little innuendo.
As far as the proud guy/gal who moved all the way up (?) from Bellmawr to Brooklawn, I'm sure his/her folks are proud. I agree with one of his points...WE DON'T NEED A PAID FIRE DEPARTMENT. God forbid if that gets said out loud though, Rick, because it might upset one of YOUR friends. I won't say her name, or your friend Bill will delete my post. It's only free speech if you agree with it.
In closing I chose the "Chicken Little" statement because I am, to the best of my knowledge, the only person to have a post pulled from Cleary's Notebook. On that one I quoted Shakespeare, certainly not Transparent enough for YOU! Ciao

ingrateful1
I respect your right to free speech. I'm not sure if I should be offended by your post. It lacks enough clarity to be sure. As for the "chicken little" statement, if comedy is your shtick CNB has a chuckles category. If I posted something that offends you or just plain rubs you the wrong way please feel free to disagree. Mr Cleary would like all of us to follow the topic.

I know that I can be as guilty as anyone else of what appears to be digressing but I find it almost impossible to separate the functioning of our governing body from politics.

I suspect you know me, possibly more than you care to, but I would like to offer you this challenge. Pick an instance covered by this thread that concerns you and that you feel needs correction. Post it and I promise I will support your position to see if we can have a positive effect on the governing body and ultimately the taxpayers of Gloucester City. It is called sharing common goals. It can be tough to do if politics and not Gloucester City is your primary motivation. I'm man enough to try if you are.
Respectfully submitted
Rick Gonzales

Happy
No offense taken if your post is to me. If we were speaking about Abbott I would tell you that seeking recognition as an Abbott District was an admission that the current management of the school district was less than successful. I'm speaking about the time of the request.
The current managers are doing what most political entities do, that is to spend all of their money every year and hope the supply line valve doesn't get turned off.
I believe Gloucester City can manage itself but not with the mentality of the past. Our previous solicitor taught our previous governing body to work with/seek OPM's. (Other Peoples Monies) It in large part crippled the thinking of Gloucester City for many years and now you see the results. The newspaper today has a story about him succeeding in putting a 77 year old resident of Glassboro out of his home in order to give the property to a developer. It says it was done legally but it also said that misleading statements were made that preceded the signing.
The preceding statement is an example of where we were. We changed the governing body in a display of outrage. But if you check you will find that the present governing body has also hired a redevelopment salesman. Isn't just more of the same?
Respectfully submitted
Rick Gonzales

[ingrateful1]

Frankly I think there are some who would invite a property tax increase, Rick, if it meant getting rid of some of the riff-raff in this town. How long can the sky fall in your world?

[Happy]

Didn't mean to offend earlier just making observations

other towns high school aged kids are educeted so how does that factor in with taxes- does it cost more to send them out of town?
I started at Triton;but graduated from GHS

and is having a extended preschool program because of abbott really a good idea for citizens who pay taxes -or is it all covered by grants?

and isn't it bad for other economic reason to be abbott?
I realize that some families need the extra help; but most people I hear from say it's actually a bad thing to be abbott I'm confused

Readers
In case anyone thinks that my post was in any way support for the wasteful squandering of taxpayer money either past or present you are dead wrong. Our past performance was a disgrace and our present decision to let the democrat club run the town offers little hope for change.

I agree with the idea that Gloucester City is in for the shock of its life when Abbott ends. As a business person and a labor contract negotiator I'm equally certain that if Abbott doesn't do us in our workforce size and existing contracts will. I've read three of the labor agreements so far and have yet to see anything to indicate a mechanism for reaching equalibrium between efficency and spending.

No one in the current workforce needs to be personally hurt to get the situation under control but every labor agreement needs to have a clause entitled "support of common goals". Without it your labor agreement is an adversarial document 100% of the time so why would you want to call it an agreement.

Let's hope the current governing body has the guts to become open and transparent before the bankruptcy judge has Gloucester City on the block.

Respectfully submitted
Rick Gonzales

[Theresa]

I agree that you have to compare more than just the numbers. To name a few, Barrington, Mt. Ephraim, Brooklawn, and others do not have high schools. Not sure if they have preschool and what age. I'm sure it makes a difference if they have special education in the school or not too.

If you were going to do a comparison, I think you'd have to include a column that defined the schooling system, number of residents, if they have a water/sewer department, paid fire department and I'm sure several other variables.

I don't believe you can just look at a set of numbers and town names and compare. You would need a lot more details.

[There is a woodchuck in the woodpile]

To Gloucester City Defender :
You are right about the Bellmawr school system........none of those communities mention have school budgets like Gloucester City of $40 million either....are you ready to pay more in taxes when Abbott is disolved or do feel that cutbacks are necessary?
And then there is still the question of why Gloucester city has more employees than any of the other towns? And let's consider too that many of those communities have their employees picking up the trash/recycle- ables. Gloucester pays an outside contractor to do that work.Check the figures out and come back with a better argument on why a poor town like Gloucester City stands out in this data base for having too many extras they can't afford to keep?

Happy
I enjoy reading the CNB posts. I don't think we need to disagree with or ridcule other posters. Nor is their name important. Your statement and the subsequent question prompted me to take your advice. I went to NJACTB and looked up two of my properties. In an effort to do apples to apples I used two industrial zoned properties. The Bellmawr property is 2200 square feet larger. (not much difference) If I were to sell them I think I could ask the same price for each.

I converted the size of each to square feet. I divided the square feet by the actual tax amount. This produced the following numbers, Bellmawr = 9.20/sqft. vs. Gloucester = 8.75/sqft. If you think it is better to use a different formula we can try it. I had never done this before, it was strictly a reaction to an interesting comment that motivated the calculation. Thanks for the post and don't hesitate to suggest a different method for me to try.
Respectfully submitted
Rick Gonzales

Does Bellmawr have a High School, and a Preschool Eary Childhood Center. Just wondering. That might meen something why Gloucester have more. We have more facilities. Although Highland Park needs to get the boot.

MATHLESS, JUST LOOK AT ANY REAL ESTATE WEBSITE FOR PROPERTIES IN BELLMAWR. DEFINITELY HIGHER.

Happy
How did you determine the taxes were higher in Bellmawr?
Mathless

[HAPPY IN BROOKLAWN]

I grew up in Bellmawr and now live in Brooklawn
I am real surprised by these numbers
Gloucester has A paid Fire Department with 30 men
Bellmawr is volunteer?
Gloucester has 424 paid employees in the schools
Bellmawr has 211
Bellmawr has 30 police officers and so does Gloucester
(Gloucester has more crimes; but less pay for their officers according to that PERC link)
Both Populations are about 11000(LAST CENSUS?)
Bellmawr taxes are higher
what's wrong with this picture---GLAD I LIVE IN BROOKLAWN